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On April 26 2024 22:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Bravo. *golfclap*
Again faith dictating reason.
Mention of remediation efforts in this article:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-wont-sanction-israeli-military-090107117.html
Take note of the double standard. Funding to the whole UNRWA was stopped immediately after allegations against a few members for partaking in the October 7 massacre. The UNRWA immediately fired all accused members (with sufficient evidence not having been presented at the time) and yet funding did not resume until much later. Meanwhile only a small part of the IDF was facing similar allegations, and sanctions against that particular battalion are immediately being revoked after some steps towards remediation are being taken.
This just doesn't make any sense. There's a clear general hostility towards Palestinians and a favoritism towards Israel. It cannot be denied.
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On April 26 2024 23:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2024 23:27 JimmiC wrote:On April 26 2024 23:23 Cricketer12 wrote: Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Peaceable Assembly until you actually use it.
National Guard, State Police and the like show up in droves to arrest college students and professors across America for the crime of protest.
My own state of Indiana had snipers on a roof aimed at unarmed college students.
Note that no violence was being perfomed, no destruction or demolition. Peaceful congregation. This your last sentence true? I keep reading about how Jewish students are being asked to do classes virtually for their safety. Claiming a lack of safety based on what though? An assumption that to be a protestor is to be anti-semitic? Haven't seen any reports indicating any anti-semetic action has taken place/anything has been done to make Jewish students unsafe. What I have seen is a Pro-Israeli protestor walking into the middle of a congregation and getting completely ignored. There is videos of people being yelled at and threatened. That being said zi don’t really go looking for it. My understanding is most of the arrests are when the students or in rare cases professors are blocking other students from going to class. If they don’t they seem to be being left in most places.
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On April 26 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2024 23:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 26 2024 23:27 JimmiC wrote:On April 26 2024 23:23 Cricketer12 wrote: Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Peaceable Assembly until you actually use it.
National Guard, State Police and the like show up in droves to arrest college students and professors across America for the crime of protest.
My own state of Indiana had snipers on a roof aimed at unarmed college students.
Note that no violence was being perfomed, no destruction or demolition. Peaceful congregation. This your last sentence true? I keep reading about how Jewish students are being asked to do classes virtually for their safety. Claiming a lack of safety based on what though? An assumption that to be a protestor is to be anti-semitic? Haven't seen any reports indicating any anti-semetic action has taken place/anything has been done to make Jewish students unsafe. What I have seen is a Pro-Israeli protestor walking into the middle of a congregation and getting completely ignored. There is videos of people being yelled at and threatened. That being said zi don’t really go looking for it. My understanding is most of the arrests are when the students or in rare cases professors are blocking other students from going to class. If they don’t they seem to be being left in most places. Not what I'm seeing. In many cases the act of setting up tents has caused Police to be called in for mass arrests/shutdowns.
Columbia has been in discussions with the protestors but IU, Cincinatti and Ohio State went straight for immediate arrests
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On April 26 2024 23:44 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:On April 26 2024 23:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 26 2024 23:27 JimmiC wrote:On April 26 2024 23:23 Cricketer12 wrote: Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Peaceable Assembly until you actually use it.
National Guard, State Police and the like show up in droves to arrest college students and professors across America for the crime of protest.
My own state of Indiana had snipers on a roof aimed at unarmed college students.
Note that no violence was being perfomed, no destruction or demolition. Peaceful congregation. This your last sentence true? I keep reading about how Jewish students are being asked to do classes virtually for their safety. Claiming a lack of safety based on what though? An assumption that to be a protestor is to be anti-semitic? Haven't seen any reports indicating any anti-semetic action has taken place/anything has been done to make Jewish students unsafe. What I have seen is a Pro-Israeli protestor walking into the middle of a congregation and getting completely ignored. There is videos of people being yelled at and threatened. That being said zi don’t really go looking for it. My understanding is most of the arrests are when the students or in rare cases professors are blocking other students from going to class. If they don’t they seem to be being left in most places. Not what I'm seeing. In many cases the act of setting up tents has caused Police to be called in for mass arrests/shutdowns. Columbia has been in discussions with the protestors but IU, Cincinatti and Ohio State went straight for immediate arrests Fair enough I have not read much if anything about those schools.
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On April 26 2024 23:33 Magic Powers wrote:Mention of remediation efforts in this article: https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-wont-sanction-israeli-military-090107117.htmlTake note of the double standard. Funding to the whole UNRWA was stopped immediately after allegations against a few members for partaking in the October 7 massacre. The UNRWA immediately fired all accused members (with sufficient evidence not having been presented at the time) and yet funding did not resume until much later. Meanwhile only a small part of the IDF was facing similar allegations, and sanctions against that particular battalion are immediately being revoked after some steps towards remediation are being taken. This just doesn't make any sense. There's a clear general hostility towards Palestinians and a favoritism towards Israel. It cannot be denied. Should be noted that the US hasn't and will not resume funding (until 2025 at the earliest) of UNRWA, despite Israel failing to provide evidence for its allegations. There were also no sanctions applied to the Israeli Occupation Forces to revoke.
Makes sense to just be villainous and say that Biden isn't doing them, instead of him looking like an impotent wimp and claiming he is while Netanyahu laughs in his face.
On April 26 2024 23:44 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:On April 26 2024 23:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 26 2024 23:27 JimmiC wrote:On April 26 2024 23:23 Cricketer12 wrote: Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Peaceable Assembly until you actually use it.
National Guard, State Police and the like show up in droves to arrest college students and professors across America for the crime of protest.
My own state of Indiana had snipers on a roof aimed at unarmed college students.
Note that no violence was being perfomed, no destruction or demolition. Peaceful congregation. This your last sentence true? I keep reading about how Jewish students are being asked to do classes virtually for their safety. Claiming a lack of safety based on what though? An assumption that to be a protestor is to be anti-semitic? Haven't seen any reports indicating any anti-semetic action has taken place/anything has been done to make Jewish students unsafe. What I have seen is a Pro-Israeli protestor walking into the middle of a congregation and getting completely ignored. There is videos of people being yelled at and threatened. That being said zi don’t really go looking for it. My understanding is most of the arrests are when the students or in rare cases professors are blocking other students from going to class. If they don’t they seem to be being left in most places. Not what I'm seeing. In many cases the act of setting up tents has caused Police to be called in for mass arrests/shutdowns. Columbia has been in discussions with the protestors but IU, Cincinatti and Ohio State went straight for immediate arrests
Considering people are already calling them Hamas, US police/military train with the IDF, and Congresspeople are calling for the military to be called in, I think we're supposed to be thankful they aren't bombing the encampments and surrounding neighborhoods yet.
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Also saw some pretty clear examples of "islamophobia", notably one video where students were encouraged to go back to Gaza, but this isn't very important.
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Northern Ireland20888 Posts
It’s a fraught topic and tensions will be running high
My understanding of professors encouraging Jewish students not to go to campus for classes was that it was a precautionary, pre-emptive judgement call rather than a response to actual incidents.
For such a perception to exist is in itself regrettable, but I think that is slightly different
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On April 27 2024 02:14 WombaT wrote: It’s a fraught topic and tensions will be running high
My understanding of professors encouraging Jewish students not to go to campus for classes was that it was a precautionary, pre-emptive judgement call rather than a response to actual incidents.
For such a perception to exist is in itself regrettable, but I think that is slightly different Yeah if you had a bunch of professors telling gays to stay home for their safety, or blacks it would be outrageous and huge news. They need to make sure it is safe for all students on campus. The protestors and the Jews, most of who if not all have nothing to do with what the people are mad about, hopefully.
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Another ceasefire proposal, this time from Egypt. The US, and Israel now believe there are less than a hundred hostages still alive.
DUBAI—Egypt offered a new proposal for a truce between Israel and Hamas in which some Israeli hostages would be released in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and a three-week cease-fire, in a bid to stave off an Israeli military offensive in the southern Gazan city of Rafah.
Israel, which helped create the proposal, according to Egyptian officials, would commit to entering longer-term discussions once Hamas releases a first group of 20 hostages over the truce period—a formulation designed to overcome the militant group’s reluctance to release any hostages without any prospect of ending the war.
The move represents the latest effort by mediators to revive negotiations that have dragged on for about five months without an agreement.
During that period, the fighting has thrown the roughly two million Gazans into survival mode and more than doubled the number of those killed since Israel’s invasion to over 34,000, according to Palestinian health officials. Death figures from the Palestinian side don’t distinguish between combatants and civilians.
In Israel, meanwhile, relatives of hostages seized during the Oct. 7 Hamas-led assault that precipitated the crisis are pressing the Israeli government to do more to find out whether their family members are still alive. In recent weeks they have stepped up street demonstrations aimed at getting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to give priority to the captives’ release over a continued military operation backed by far-right members of the government.
Domestic pressure for Israel to reach a deal is mounting. Benny Gantz, one of three members in Israel’s war cabinet, said Sunday the Israeli government shouldn’t reject a “responsible outline for the return of the hostages” or it shouldn’t have the right to exist and lead the military campaign in Gaza. However he said that outline shouldn’t entail ending the war.
Israeli Foreign Minister Israel Katz said in a televised interview Saturday with Israeli media that Israel would delay an operation in Rafah in exchange for a hostage deal.
A spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister’s office declined to comment.
Israeli hostages to be freed under the Egyptian proposal would include children, women—including female soldiers—and elderly people in need of urgent medical attention, Egyptian officials said. They would be swapped for around 500 Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. The handover would be followed by a 10-week cease-fire, during which the two sides would continue talking and at least 300,000 to 400,000 Palestinians now sheltering in Rafah would be able to return to their homes elsewhere in the strip.
As part of the proposal, Israeli forces would withdraw from a corridor dividing the north and south of the enclave but still screen Palestinians on the move, according to the officials.
Hamas’s political leadership said it would consult with its military wing and other factions in Gaza and revert to mediators in a few days over the proposal, the Egyptian officials said. Hamas’s Doha-based politburo is nominally in charge of the group’s affairs around the world, including in Gaza, but final decisions are made by Yahya Sinwar, the group’s military leader in Gaza.
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But keep the funding tap on as always and also don't sanction any said units.
The US state department has found five units of the Israeli military responsible for gross violations of human rights in individual incidents, but says they will continue to receive US military backing.
All the incidents involved took place outside of Gaza before the current war.
Israel took corrective action in four units, giving "additional information" on the fifth, the department says.
This means all the units remain eligible for US military assistance.
Washington is Israel's major military backer, supplying it with $3.8bn (£3bn) worth of weapons and defence systems per year.
The announcement is the first determination of its kind for any Israeli unit by the US government.
State Department spokesman Vedant Patel said five security forces units committed gross violations of human rights.
"Four of these units have effectively remediated these violations, which is what we expect partners to do," he said.
"For a remaining unit, we continue to be in consultations and engagements with the government of Israel; they have submitted additional information as it pertains to that unit," he added.
The department denies claims it backed down under political pressure by continuing military assistance to the unit despite being unable to say whether or not there had been any accountability in the case.
"We are engaging with them in a process, and we will make an ultimate decision when it comes to that unit when that process is complete," said Mr Patel.
All the incidents are believed to have taken place in the occupied West Bank and Jerusalem in recent years.
Under America's "Leahy Law", sponsored in 1997 by then-Senator Patrick Leahy, a finding that a foreign military unit committed gross violations of human rights means it can be cut from receiving US military assistance.
The US government says it considers torture, extrajudicial killing, enforced disappearance and rape as such types of violations when implementing the Leahy law.
Even when there is such a finding, there is an exception to cutting military assistance if the state department is satisfied the cases have been dealt with and justice pursued by the government involved.
It says Israel did do this - so-called remediation - in four of the five units. However, the department declined to give any details of the incidents, the remediation, the units involved or evidence to support whether the remediation was effective.
The US was reportedly on the brink of announcing it would cut military aid to the fifth unit, but says new information from Israel means it will make a decision later.
The unit involved is widely reported to be the Netzah Yehuda battalion, a special men-only unit set up in 1999 where ultra-Orthodox Jews serve.
Israel investigated the battalion over the death of 80-year-old Palestinian-American Omar Assad who died after being bound and gagged by soldiers during a West Bank village search in 2022.
At the time the US called for a "thorough criminal investigation and full accountability".
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) later said they regretted Mr Assad's death, and a commander would be "reprimanded" and two soldiers barred from senior positions for two years - but would not be prosecuted.
Asked about reports an IDF unit would be the first ever to face the US government designation under the Leahy Law, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on 19 April: "I made determinations. You can expect to see them in the days ahead."
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to reject any sanctions on the country's military, saying he would "fight it with all my strength", while Defence Minister Yoav Gallant and war cabinet minister Benny Gantz spoke on the phone to Mr Blinken.
Pressed by the BBC on Monday over whether the state department had delayed or softened its position on withdrawing military assistance to the fifth unit, Mr Patel said officials would make a decision when their consultations with the Israeli government were complete.
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Northern Ireland20888 Posts
Interesting perspective cheers for the share. Although I can imagine how this plays will vary pretty largely campus to campus as well. Things may be relatively respectfully conducted at Yale but not necessarily elsewhere
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On May 02 2024 04:30 WombaT wrote:Interesting perspective cheers for the share. Although I can imagine how this plays will vary pretty largely campus to campus as well. Things may be relatively respectfully conducted at Yale but not necessarily elsewhere UCLA's encampment was assulted by masked individuals. Police didn't intervene. Students were left to fend for themselves
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A Hamas delegation has left Egypt as the ceasefire talks have neared collapse.
Also Biden has taken a baby step in terms of withdrawing support from Netanyahu and Israel. Only 5 months late, and the youth. But it still not enough.
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The only way there will be a permanent cease fire is if the US decides to withhold military aid to Israel if Israel does not agree. Hamas doesn't need a temporary cease fire. And Israel wants to fight on until they have achieved the magical goal they set for themselves of 'completely eliminating Hamas'. Which means Israel is basically asking for an unconditional surrender by Hamas. But Israel has not been able to affect this at all on the battlefield.
And even if US puts pressure, and Netanyahu caves in, then the two lunatics Ben Gvir and Smotrich will pull their support and the government will collapse and be ungovernable until there's new elections. And even then it is not clear if the Israeli people won't decide to give Ben Gvir and Smotrich a new mandate to continue the 'completely eliminate Hamas' with a new government and without US support. They might even gamble on a Trump win, like Putin does.
Don't get me wrong. Hamas are bad guys and if Israel could eliminate, I am totally for that. But the truth is that Israel can't solve this problem with military force. And they deliberately dismantled their own soft power & diplomatic power. Israel has freed almost none of the hostages held by Hamas. And no matter how weak Hamas becomes, as long as they have a few fighters and a few guns, they are in charge of Gaza. Because there's literally no one else.
Netanyahu doesn't even have a Plan A for Gaza. If the plan was to eliminate the Hamas leadership as much as possible, kill most of their fighters. And then have the PLO/Fatah govern Gaza because say Egypt and Saudi Arabia are willing to send peace keepers to Gaza, then at least they would have a plan. But that's not gonna happen. Israel can't and doesn't want to occupy Gaza. They want the West Bank. The US or the UN can't occupy Gaza. PLO/Fatah can't just reconquer Gaza in a new Palestinian civil war. There is literally no plan to 'eliminate Hamas' except throw US bombs and hope it solves itself. Or better. the plan is to throw US bombs on Gaza so Bibi can stay in power so he doesn't go to jail.
The sad thing is that probably Israel will never agree to a two state solution until Israel suffers a military defeat. Right now, no one in Israel is afraid of that. They have a strong military and basically unconditional US support, plus many European countries. So Israel can just go on fighting. Fighting in Gaza, fighting in the West Bank, fighting in Lebanon, fighting in Syria, and fighting against Iran. There's no way that Israel any time soon will remove say 50 000 of their own colonists from the West Bank so there can be a Palestinian state. So until Israel suffers a military defeat, I do not see a shift in Israeli general public opinion. And the majority of Israel will keep supporting a 'From the River to the Sea, there will only be Israeli sovereignty." Which probably means there never will be a Palestinian state. And the west will be 100% culpable while they have always claimed to back a two-state solution. Israel will annex all of the West Bank. Then for several more decades, Gaza will be in limbo. Like a stateless area. And then eventually, Egypt will be forced to reoccupy it in say 2060, then it is clear there will never be a Palestinian state. And by 2080 or so, Egypt will fully annex Gaza.
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Hamas has accepted the join Egyptian Qatari cease fire proposal. It is now up to Israel to accept it. Or to explain how it can be modified so they will accept it. kicking the ball back in Hamas' court. Likely, Israel doesn't want to. They have said before they don't want a permanent cease fire. The US now has to ramp up pressure to the extreme to make Israel accept. Otherwise, there's no point for Hamas to even talk to Israel any longer as any negotiations are done by bad faith by Israel and just a distraction.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/06/forcibly-displacing-rafah-civilians-would-be-war-france-warns-israel
If Biden is not able to make Netanyahu accept this, then this means Israel has completely given up on their own hostages, possibly from the start. And Israel will just keep bombing Gaza until they get bored. Or until they run out of US-provided bombs.
It is clear now that Netanyahu has no plan for Gaza and he doesn't know how to handle this crisis. Just after the announcement that Hamas has accepted the cease fire, Israel has announced they started bombing Rafah. Which is a big signal. And Ben Gvir has already gone on Twitter to denounce a cease fire.
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Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure.
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On May 07 2024 06:05 Kreuger wrote: Hamas is incredibly bad faith in this, they agree on a proposal that they themself have put forward and Israel havent even seen. They are only playing the optics game and its good that Israel doesnt buy it and instead increases the pressure.
They also know that Israel is doing most likely irreparable damage to its international image so they have no incentive to offer them a way out, it would be stupid of them. All they have to do is present the option, knowing that Israel will reject it. Israel could of course counter this clever plan by not killing a bunch more people, but that's not really in their gameplay.
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